WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

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WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby KevXR » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:02 pm

So can someone give me a definition of these techniques?

Epic skiing is just a bunch of counter arguments on this topic. (Tastes great! Less filling!) :roll:
I caught WC is focused on skiing the zipper line course moguls. SVMM is more about rounding the turn.

My background is I am a former Head Mogul Skiing Coach of the Squaw Valley Freestyle team (1984). Also, a former ski school director at Slide Mountain (1983). Skied the National Championships (Moguls) in 1981 and 1982. I quit skiing in 2000 after several knee injuries and my doctor told me to quit skiing moguls. (What is the point of skiing?) A friend sent this link, so it made me curious.

I skied a few runs with Joey Cordeau back in the 80's. He was incredibly impressive in he just did turns everywhere. One up the face of the mogul, one down the backside. More over the mogul than down the rut line (WC).

Let's assume the run isn't a frozen zipper line, but a medium bump run with good snow.
How do you denote which style a skier is using?

WC -

SVMM -

PSIA -


Kevin
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Re: WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby KevXR » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:22 am

I went over to EpicSkiing and read a few of the threads.

"SVMM" is what we use to call skiing "Tops".

"WC" is what we use to call skiing "Troughs".

I'm curious as all heck to hear what PSIA technique might be.

25 years ago, I took a PSIA course on mogul skiing and we spent the morning AVOIDING moguls. I took one instructor out at the lunch break and went over skiing moguls. He didn't have a clue. In the afternoon, I dragged the group out to West Face (Mosley's run) of KT22 at Squaw Valley. I had a blast and blew the mind of the group instructor. We had a good time. Probably the only good time I've ever had at a PSIA event.
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Re: WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby CometKat » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:50 am

PSIA would be around the moguls.

There is a regular at Heavenly who I consider to be one of the top five mogul skiers on the mountain. I would say he uses all three techniques in one smooth flow down the run. It’s very impressive to watch.

BTW, this mixed method is advocated by Nelson Carmichael in his Simply Moguls instructional video. To paraphrase, he says you should be able to ski on top, around, through, anywhere on a mogul, to maintain the flow of the fall line.
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Re: WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby AlpineZone » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:46 pm

KevXR wrote:I'm curious as all heck to hear what PSIA technique might be.


Skiing groomers? ;)
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Re: WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby KevXR » Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:05 pm

CometKat wrote:PSIA would be around the moguls.

There is a regular at Heavenly who I consider to be one of the top five mogul skiers on the mountain. I would say he uses all three techniques in one smooth flow down the run. It’s very impressive to watch.

BTW, this mixed method is advocated by Nelson Carmichael in his Simply Moguls instructional video. To paraphrase, he says you should be able to ski on top, around, through, anywhere on a mogul, to maintain the flow of the fall line.

Who is the skier?

I agree with the Nelson Carmichael comment. Back in my day, I was forced to learn to ski tops (SVMM), though I was a natural trough skier (WC). If not skiing the zipper line, skiing the sides (more SVMM) is a very effective way to ski moguls. Basically, off sequence, avoiding the lows of the ruts and the highs of the mogul tops.

There is another method of "deflection turns" that works great in powder bumps or slush bumps. The turns look like the WC style and absolutely is fast in soft snow.
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Re: WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby lesbosses » Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:52 pm

KevXR wrote:There is another method of "deflection turns" that works great in powder bumps or slush bumps. The turns look like the WC style and absolutely is fast in soft snow.


Deflecting my board and no real turns. Nothing better!!
Last edited by lesbosses on Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby CometKat » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:46 pm

Lesbosses,

The way you set up the above quote is incorrect. That is not my quote it is KevXR’s quote.

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Re: WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby jack97 » Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:16 pm

IMO, in terms of SVMM, I see differences in the way Joey skis versus his son, Shane. Yeah, Joey is a turning machine but he keeps his hips back and that prevents him from absorbing with the knees and he has to hunch his back forward to put pressure on the front of his skis. I got the vid they are selling and you can Joey doing this during his drills, the hunching to put forward pressure. Shane doesn't do a lot of this, he keeps his upper body more centered over the skis while turning.

PSIA, IMO leverages too much techniques from the racing scene. Also, the cuff neutral approach of the boots and the sidecuts of the skis reflects the fact that they rely on the ski to make the turn. I only see a handful of PSIA instructors that make short radius turns while centered on the ski. In the lateral view, I see most drop the hip into the turn to get better edge angle, I think they are making knee angulation a thing of the past and are relying on more hip angualtion to achieve the edge angles. Then in the fore/aft, due the cuff neutral and lateral stiffness of the boot they end up on the back seat. IMO, they have to rely line selection as a way to control speed versus not taking a direct path on the fall line.
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Re: WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby KevXR » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:57 pm

lesbosses wrote:
KevXR wrote:
CometKat wrote:There is another method of "deflection turns" that works great in powder bumps or slush bumps. The turns look like the WC style and absolutely is fast in soft snow.


Deflecting my board and no real turns. Nothing better!!

It's a real turn. As real as WC and great for powder bumps on West Face of KT.
Kevin
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Re: WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby KevXR » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:03 pm

jack97 wrote:IMO, in terms of SVMM, I see differences in the way Joey skis versus his son, Shane. Yeah, Joey is a turning machine but he keeps his hips back and that prevents him from absorbing with the knees and he has to hunch his back forward to put pressure on the front of his skis. I got the vid they are selling and you can Joey doing this during his drills, the hunching to put forward pressure. Shane doesn't do a lot of this, he keeps his upper body more centered over the skis while turning.

PSIA, IMO leverages too much techniques from the racing scene. Also, the cuff neutral approach of the boots and the sidecuts of the skis reflects the fact that they rely on the ski to make the turn. I only see a handful of PSIA instructors that make short radius turns while centered on the ski. In the lateral view, I see most drop the hip into the turn to get better edge angle, I think they are making knee angulation a thing of the past and are relying on more hip angualtion to achieve the edge angles. Then in the fore/aft, due the cuff neutral and lateral stiffness of the boot they end up on the back seat. IMO, they have to rely line selection as a way to control speed versus not taking a direct path on the fall line.

Interesting. Hip angulation is going to be too slow for most fast mogul skiing.

What works for racing and even for mogul competitions is not always the best technique recreational skiers until they are ready to compete. Many skiers need to learn to control speed vs conserve speed (racing). They need to ski moguls and that may not include skiing zipper lines.
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Re: WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby CometKat » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:55 pm

I agree with the whole premise of this website that WC is the best way to ski moguls. However, I also think if you ski natural moguls having a big bag of tricks is very useful. That might mean throwing in an occasional PSIA swooper to avoid a rock or a giant cliff. Or maybe hopping a trough or doing a quick turn on top of a bump. The way I see it since I’m not competing I can do whatever I want. Lately I’ve been working on skiing opposite the line as an exercise. This is right out of Carmichael’s video and is an interesting challenge.
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Re: WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby jack97 » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:37 pm

KevXR wrote:Interesting. Hip angulation is going to be too slow for most fast mogul skiing.

Not even for fast mogul skiing, if the bumps are tightly spaced, hip angulation would placed the hip out of position for the upcoming bumps. When I see skiers using more hip angulation and less knee angulation, I can tell the skier is going to bail out of the zipper and take a slower line just to control their speed.


KevXR wrote:They need to ski moguls and that may not include skiing zipper lines.

I just got schooled by Evan Dybvig, he stressed staying center is one of the most important things, especially when the moguls are made by skiers/riders thus non uniformed (not made by cats). When centered, you're ready to make any type of turns you want (as well as absorption), once you're out of center it's hard to control the skis.
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Re: WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby Jeffy » Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:45 pm

CometKat wrote:I agree with the whole premise of this website that WC is the best way to ski moguls. However, I also think if you ski natural moguls having a big bag of tricks is very useful. That might mean throwing in an occasional PSIA swooper to avoid a rock or a giant cliff. Or maybe hopping a trough or doing a quick turn on top of a bump. The way I see it since I’m not competing I can do whatever I want. Lately I’ve been working on skiing opposite the line as an exercise. This is right out of Carmichael’s video and is an interesting challenge.


Totally agree CometKat. And that skiing opposite the line drill is called reverse trough and it is hard as hell. My old ski buddy Brian Caron learned that from Nelly when he was training with the US team back in the day and showed it to me and my boys. Not that I do that drill very much any more but I can still only make about 3-4 turns before I fall back in the troughs. Great drill for sure.
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Re: WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby KevXR » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:10 pm

I'm a bump skier from the past millenium.
We made moguls runs the old fashion way, we skied them into shape.
I would have loved to have a maching that made regularly spaced moguls.

Funny true story...
I was hired as the head mogul coach for the Squaw Valley Freestyle Team. My first day the director tells me that I have to teach how to ski over the mogul as that is what the judges are looking for in a run. I tell him that I am a "trough skier" (WC) and why did you hire me? So I had to teach myself to ski over the bumps (SVMM way), then teach the kids to ski that way.

A few years later, I am replaced by Greg Woodbury, a friend. His first day on the job he is told by the director he needs to teach skiing in the troughs, WC style. Greg did a lot of skiing with Joey Cordeau and Greg's style was a modified SVMM.

We laughed at how we were hired to teach the opposite method from our natural mogul skiing method.

Learning several methods of skiing bumps makes you more versitile. Some mogul runs are just better suited for a particular style. When you get older and beat up, you need the one that is the least painful on that run.

Kevin

P.S. Greg and I both did a lot of skiing with Rudi Zink of Squaw Valley, who mentored both of us. Rudi and Greg were my two favorite ski partners.
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Re: WC vs SVMM (Sun Valley Mogul Method) vs PSIA

Postby lesbosses » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:58 pm

KevXR wrote:It's a real turn. As real as WC and great for powder bumps on West Face of KT.


KevXR
Can you explain what are "deflection turns"?
Most of us use the "deflection turns" technique on hard snow and with minimum knees angle for speed. It's all about surviving in style Thanks...

KevXR wrote:"SVMM" is what we use to call skiing "Tops".

I don't see it that way..
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